Episode 0014 · January 24, 2023

The podcast about what to do next.


Paul Ford: [00:00:00] Man Rich, remember the how the tech industry was always go, go, go– grow, grow, grow.

Rich Ziade: Mmmmm.

Paul Ford: And now let me, let me give you some names: Microsoft, Google-

Rich Ziade: Okay… 

Paul Ford: Facebook, Spotify, huge layoffs all across the industry.

Rich Ziade: A lot of tech layoffs these days.

Paul Ford: Yeah.

Rich Ziade: You’re hearing large numbers of people being sent home. Uh, it feels weird if you’re in the tech world where it’s just always up into the right.

Paul Ford: Yes, it’s-

Rich Ziade: It’s wild to see.

Paul Ford: Suddenly, you know– are they gonna cut down on fancy coffee and stop with the massages and the ball pits? It’s, it’s, it’s a tricky time. So we should talk about it. It’s not necessarily anybody’s favorite subject, but we should– we gotta dig in.

Rich Ziade: Let’s dig in.

Paul Ford: [00:01:00] Look Rich, I got these companies, the biggest companies in the world– tech companies.

Rich Ziade: Some of the biggest companies in the world.

Paul Ford: They make billions of dollars a quarter, billions of the B, billions.

Rich Ziade: Yep.

Paul Ford: Tens of billions-

Rich Ziade: Mm-hm.

Paul Ford: Of money, just dollars, just scrooge McDuck levels of gold in there.

Rich Ziade: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Paul Ford: What– do they have bank accounts? companies like that? is, does it actually, do you, when you have like a hundred billion dollars, where do you put it?

Rich Ziade: No it’s funny, they have like Ireland.

Paul Ford: Yeah, that’s right.

Rich Ziade: Because it’s a tax shelter or something, it, it gets very abstract and the assets are held in different pla- I get, you know, you have teams of people thinking about optimizing tax strategy and stuff like that, so no, it’s not, it’s not TD Waterhouse checking.

Paul Ford: So, okay, fine. You know, just typical things.

Rich Ziade: No but you’re, you’re highlighting something real. There’s tons of cash reserve, and they’re making money. It’s not like they’re bleeding.

Paul Ford: No, they’re doing great. 

Rich Ziade: They’re making [00:02:00] billions every quarter, right? They’re reporting it, right? they’re making billions of dollars every quarter. Um, I think a good way to sort of, it, it, it smacks of greed to say, why would you send people home if you’re making billions?

Paul Ford: Right.

Rich Ziade: Uh, the, the challenge you run into is that there are owners, the owners of this business, and I’m not talking about one owner. I’m talking about someone that has three quarters of a billion dollars in Microsoft. 

Paul Ford: Mm-hmm. , 

Rich Ziade: Like as part of a fund, and which is a tiny sliver of Microsoft, but it’s three quarters of a billion dollars.

Paul Ford: Okay, so this could be the Ontario Fireman’s Pension Fund.

Rich Ziade: It could be such and such fund. It could be anything, yeah. I mean, it could be private wealth– Who doesn’t? Who knows? But here’s what they do, they write a letter. They’re like “you hired incredibly quickly over the last 24 months, the [00:03:00] economy’s contracting, money is not cheap anymore the rates are up. You should send people home. You– protect my investment, please”, and so what you’re seeing here isn’t just the CEO, the CEO is answerable to those owners by the way.

Paul Ford: This is, this is easy to forget, right? Like the CEO-

Rich Ziade: They write those letters.

Paul Ford: Oh, boy do they. They really do. And it, it is, it’s part of their job. Their job is to look and go, “Hey, wait a minute, couldn’t Microsoft be doing better?” We should send them one of our letters.

Paul Ford: And it’s funny, you, you might send a letter to Microsoft, not gonna get opened. If, if Paul Ford writes a letter to Microsoft, it’s gonna sit there on a shelf.

Rich Ziade: Not getting opened.

Paul Ford: No, but if the Ontario Fireman and uh, Sailor’s pension fund.

Rich Ziade: Which has potentially billions of dollars or whatever it may be.

Paul Ford: Those get opened.

Rich Ziade: They get opened because they’re looking out for the, the, the members of that fund, right? They’re the people who are waiting for their pensions, they wanna protect their interests. So it isn’t– now are there [00:04:00] CEOs making millions of dollars? Yes. Do those CEOs unilaterally get to decide if people stay on or not?

Rich Ziade: Not unilaterally. They may propose, “Hey, we want to cut back, and the truth is, there was a lot of fast hire. We hired fast, real fast, real aggressive over the last two and a half years. There’s no way you can’t deny it. Like people just piled on human beings”

Paul Ford: Sure.

Rich Ziade: “And the, the economy contracted and”-

Paul Ford: “Couldn’t hire fast enough” 

Rich Ziade: “Couldn’t hire fast enough, could not hire fast”.

Rich Ziade: So this isn’t by any means, an excuse. You could still make the case of like, “we hear you, feel free to take your pension money elsewhere”. But this thing is a publicly traded, all these companies you listed out are publicly traded, they could cause real damage by pulling out too quickly and diluting the value of the stock market.

Paul Ford: Well, real damage, right? So let, let’s, let’s quantify real damage– “we’re not gonna do it, we’re gonna hold on to everybody and to hell with you, with your letter”.

Paul Ford: “Oh, well, we’re gonna, we’re gonna divest ourselves of all [00:05:00] of our stock in you”. Suddenly everybody’s like, “Ooh, that’s not good”.

Rich Ziade: Here’s what the pension people want to hear. By the way, there’s, there’s definitely been CEOs who said, “no, we’re not gonna do it”. What the pension doesn’t– what, what the pension fund people will hear out is this, “let me sit you down and tell you about the next three to five years and why we need all those people because there is growth ahead”.

Paul Ford: Sure, sure.

Rich Ziade: Here’s what they don’t want to hear, “I feel really bad for our employees and we kind of owe it to them to not send them home”. The pension fund, people want to know that their investment, that there’s a plan behind spending whatever they’re spending, and then there’s there that there is growth coming. Do they sympathize? I, I don’t think they’re bad people because they actually are sympathizing with the pension holders, right? [chuckles] Everybody’s looking out for the interest, you know, their, their own interests and that’s normal.

Paul Ford: This is the puzzle, right? Because what happens is we get one narrative, which is Microsoft [00:06:00] is laying off 10,000 people.

Rich Ziade: And they’re making a lot of money.

Paul Ford: And they’re making a lot of money. Okay, so that’s true, and I, I don’t, I’ll tell you what, no one– there’s no expectation that you should feel any empathy at all in any way for the Microsoft leadership that’s making these decisions. They don’t expect it either.

Rich Ziade: They don’t.

Paul Ford: Maybe from, you know, their spouses like, “boy, that was a tough day at work today”. But, but they know what they’re doing. Look, the formulation I always used and then I, I, I think is really important is when you lay somebody off, you are not just laying them off, you are– even if they are a bad employee, you are affecting a family. You are causing a lot of damage in the world when you lay somebody off.

Rich Ziade: No doubt about it, no doubt about it.

Paul Ford: Okay, so, and I mean these are, these are ultimately human beings. You might say that they’re monsters, but they, they might, they have empathy and, and so, so they’re watching this all unfold and they’re about to go– I grew up in a town with 17,000 people, and if you, if you fire 10,000 people, like, I don’t know how I would fire half a town.

Paul Ford: Right?

Rich Ziade: It’s massive.

Paul Ford: It’s, it’s, massive. So here’s this, the weather [00:07:00] system of pure capitalism , shareholders in corporations makes it necessary inside of this system that large numbers of people have to go home. There is no easy escape from it unless you have a magical growth story or zone. And if, if you don’t do it, they’ll start talking to your board and you’ll get in trouble.

Rich Ziade: You’re touching on what’s fundamentally political about a lot of this stuff, right? Which is what happens is, the chatter, the whispers start to come in, you know, “Nadella, what– everyone else is doing it. We hired just as quickly as everyone else. What’s your plan?”

Paul Ford: Yep.

Rich Ziade: And then they sort of wait in the weeds and they wait to see, right? And what starts to happen is, other agendas, other motivations start to circle, right? And, and you can sort of feel, start to feel that heat and then it becomes, frankly, old school political, which is like, “okay, we’re [00:08:00]gonna need to throw them this bone., like there’s just the, everyone’s done it”. And that’s a by the way, part of it, it’s a momentum game. It’s like now is the time.

Paul Ford: Yeah, well Microsoft wasn’t gonna be the first one to lay everybody off.

Rich Ziade: Exactly, and so and so, now it’s like, “okay, draw up the plan. Let’s see what we’re going to to do here”.

Paul Ford: Everybody’s very sober.

Rich Ziade: Everybody’s very sober.

Paul Ford: Everybody’s very serious. You know, we’re gonna take this very, very seriously, but the reality is, yes, there’s a huge why… I mean, let’s be really blatant here, why is Satya– Satya, NadelLa, or any of these CEOs they’re not evil people, but they are covering their ass, because if they don’t do this and their competitors do, and it doesn’t all work out good, they’re gonna get their ass handed to them, they’re gonna be in trouble.

Rich Ziade: He doesn’t own Microsoft.

Paul Ford: Yeah.

Rich Ziade: Satya Nadella is not sitting on, in some big chair at the top of the building. It just doesn’t work that way, he actually, it’s one of the worst things– What is a board meeting? It is a bunch of film critics telling you how you can make a better movie.[00:09:00]

Paul Ford: And you have to smile at them and say, “yeah, absolutely that’s great”.

Rich Ziade: Of course, but they’re the owners, they’re not there for fun– not, they’re not always the owners, sometimes they’re like revered experts in an industry that are just asked to sit on the board cause they’re so successful and they’ve done so well, right? It’s like Bob Iger sits on, I’m sure other boards because he’s Bob Iger. Like-

Paul Ford: Could you imagine how exhausting that is? Cause you know, he looks in and he goes, “I could do a better job”.

Rich Ziade: He probably does. Oh, they all do. They’re all very successful people.

Paul Ford: Yeah, it is. What is a giant corporate board? It is a concentrated narcissism that you’re hoping you can turn to your advantage. 

Rich Ziade: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So you get this polarized perspectives that kick in, right? One is corporate greed, this is just yet another example of corporate greed.

Paul Ford: Sure.

Rich Ziade: Right? And, the other is just sober capitalist machinery is doing what it does, it’s what it’s supposed to do. This [00:10:00] means it’s a healthy machine.

Paul Ford: Listen, markets should be efficient.

Rich Ziade: Markets should be efficient. Yeah. Um, so-

Paul Ford: But in the meantime, 10,000 people and 40,000, if you count their families go home from Google and they, they get their, their badges are revoked. And you know, some of them, I saw people on Twitter– one guy wrote a book about how great search is and kind of obviously lived his life inside of this org, and he’s laid off and he is like, “whoa, I, I’m just, I didn’t expect to become a, they call themselves exogglers, ex-ogglers”.

Rich Ziade: Oh.

Paul Ford: Yeah, for people who leave Google. And he’s like, “I didn’t expect to become a exoggler this way, right?”.

Rich Ziade: I mean, look– humans construct what look like relationships in their minds with these entities, right? I mean, and it does feel like betrayal, like “I’m there 12 years and just like that?”, and you know, you, a lot of the, like, the tone of it is “an email?”, “I was, I was working from home and I got an email and I couldn’t get into Slack” is how it goes[00:11:00] down.

Paul Ford: “This is how you treat me as a human being?”.

Rich Ziade: “This is how you treat me after all these years?”.

Paul Ford: Right. 

Rich Ziade: A lot of the feeling is like, “I gave everything to this company for 12 years and worked real hard, and really dedicated a big chunk of my life to it”– and now I’m gonna represent the company, “We paid you for that time”.

Paul Ford: Sure.

Rich Ziade: Right? “And now reality has smacked us in the face, and we’ve stumbled and you are a casualty of this difficult moment, right?”. 

Paul Ford: This is, I feel that this is a very complicated part of society and it’s this– the ethical relationship for a company to have with an employee is to say, “we need you to demonstrate some loyalty and to not speak out of, turn to the rest of the world about our private doings, and you need to complete your job, and then we will pay you”.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: “And we will all go along with this relationship for as long as it makes sense to both of us. You [00:12:00] can leave and we can let you go”. That’s the actual transactional relationship of an employee-employer, like that is what it is.

Rich Ziade: It is what it is, and you said relationship like four different times just now.

Paul Ford: Oh fine. But hold on, what happens instead is I, I think like people come into the job and, and the, one of the ways to get people to come work for you is to say, “I think this is really important and meaningful as an individual”, and they go: “I’d love to work on something meaningful”.

Rich Ziade: Mission.

Paul Ford: “Mission, come on in”. And then everybody talks about the mission. And mission aligns people and they align around the brand, the identity.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: And that all is really, really good, and everybody, and then you give– they, they say, “Hey, you know, we, we really want some, extra stuff, we want-I don’t know- really good coffee”. And you go, “absolutely, you’re important to me. Let me get you some really good coffee”.

Rich Ziade: Yup.

Paul Ford: And it’s all good, and then it hits brass tacks and suddenly all the, all the masks come off.

Rich Ziade: And, and I think, I think there’s no, there’s no advice to give here on don’t, don’t start to [00:13:00] emotionally invest in your relationship with your employer.

Paul Ford: You’re gonna do it.

Rich Ziade: You’re gonna do it, right? Like, and, and look, the truth is for a lot of people, the employer was incredibly good to them for many, many years. Like there-

Paul Ford: My God, have you ever been to Google’s offices?

Rich Ziade: I mean, I’ve been there, Google’s offices, It’s pretty ama- I wanna, I, they tried to, they escorted me out, Paul, because I was like, “can I just stay for one more snack?”.

Paul Ford: You can press a button and a man on a scooter brings you a burrito. It’s just a miracle, everything.

Rich Ziade: Look, look, it’s a competitive marketplace out there. They want the best people, et cetera, et cetera. But, understand that you may view it as a relationship, but at that scale, even at a smaller scale, to be frank, there are two things that are going on. One scale, you are on a spreadsheet, you’re in a spreadsheet like that is reality. You may be a good performer in your group, which is inside of another group, which is inside of yet another group.

Paul Ford: A spreadsheet is a fantasy, you are inside of an ERP system run by SAP.

Rich Ziade: You’re inside of an ERP system.

Paul Ford: Yeah.

Rich Ziade: For you looking outward– Google is [00:14:00] everything. There is your family, there is your hobbies, your vacations, and then there’s Google or whoever you worked for, that is reality.

Paul Ford: Your, your-and it is fundamentally, in many ways, unfair- your employer gets to decide the parameters of your life for you, when you get to go somewhere, and what you get to do.

Rich Ziade: That’s right, that’s right.

Rich Ziade: So let, let’s translate that into some advice. Save your relationship coins to actual human relationships.

Paul Ford: I feel that, look, that’s one of the hardest things to actually do. Okay, because, because what happens is you work at a company like Microsoft and you’re very aware of the CEO– the ceo who is, who is in the news, and the brand, and the products are in the news.

Rich Ziade: You see him a lot, he sees you never.

Paul Ford: This is real, you know, you know, I, I, I’ll tell you, if I [00:15:00] sat in a room with him, I could have a great conversation who I think I know really well.

Rich Ziade: Who?

Paul Ford: Joe, Joe Biden, because he, uh, he was the senator from Delaware. I grew up very close to Delaware.

Rich Ziade: Okay.

Paul Ford: Joe Biden has been in the corner of my eye since I was about seven years old.

Rich Ziade: Yeah, that’s why-

Paul Ford: Okay, so decades and decades of Joe Biden. I know all about Joe Biden. I know about his family, I know about his Senate career. I know about his scandals.

Rich Ziade: Mm-hm.

Paul Ford: I just, I know Joe Biden top to bottom, and I never, never once until he ran for president really looked at the Wikipedia page.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: But, uh, I knew all about Joe Biden. You know what Joe Biden knows about me?

Rich Ziade: Very little.

Paul Ford: Not a damn thing. He does know, I’m sure he knows the town I came from– Westchester, Pennsylvania, right?

Rich Ziade: Fine. 

Paul Ford: But he knows, you know, the same way that he knows Scranton.

Rich Ziade: Sure.

Paul Ford: Cause he grew up there.

Rich Ziade: Sure.

Paul Ford: But like, but, but not a thing. And that, those power dynamics are fundamental to every single structure in human existence.

Rich Ziade: Mm-hm.

Paul Ford: And we interrogate them constantly and we can’t debug them. They just exist.

Rich Ziade: They exist.

Paul Ford: And so what you wanna do, in my opinion, [00:16:00] and I would advise people when I was their employer, I would try to advise them in their relationship with me. And it’s one of the hardest things to communicate, which is don’t get too connected here. 

Rich Ziade: Don’t get too connected to this abstract entity or the leadership up top, that’s seven layers above. Get connected to the people around you, within work and outside of work. Because think of it this way, if you are one of those people who got let go, is there someone at your employer who stayed behind who’s like, “I know exactly who to introduce this person to”.

Paul Ford: Yeah.

Paul Ford: I remember being in my twenties and looking at all my bosses and being like, “what are they even, thinking?”.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: I should be, I should be in control here.

Rich Ziade: It’s a common refrain.

Paul Ford: It’s very, look, that’s just human behavior. And I’m gonna tell you, it’s incredibly self-destructive because what you do is you focus on the wrong [00:17:00] altitude. You focus on why you don’t have control as opposed to what control you do have, and that took me a long time to learn.

Rich Ziade: Perfect the control you do have.

Paul Ford: Yes.

Rich Ziade: That’s where the energy should go.

Paul Ford: Yes. No, but the people who do that, boy do they have a lot more autonomy and happiness.

Rich Ziade: I think that’s real.

Paul Ford: They’re also the ones where it’s like, “Ooh, I got a bad review”. They’re the ones where it’s funny because they’ll be like, “I got a bad review. That person is my enemy. Time to go.”, right? Like they’re very, they’re very transactional about the relationship-

Rich Ziade: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Ford: But they also wear the t-shirt. Like, they’re like, okay, go rah, rah, rah, and at the same time, in the back of their head, they’re like, “yeah no they’re coming for me”.

Rich Ziade: They’re realistic.

Paul Ford: What you realize as you get to know more and more people later in their careers is they, if the ones who are successful are the ones who are like, “yeah, no, this could turn out really badly for me”.

Rich Ziade: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, well, they’re realistic. 

Paul Ford: Yeah. 

Rich Ziade: Um, they’re a little less emotional, but at the same [00:18:00] time they understand, uh, they understand they only have a limited number of cycles and you could use them complaining and second guessing, which means you are not really investing in yourself.

Paul Ford: Correct.

Rich Ziade: At that point, and I think that’s what you’re talking about.

Paul Ford: And accepting your own invisibility, right?

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: You and I have this wonderful little vest pocket universe where you and I work together. We used to run a company, we’re running a new company. You know who cares?

Rich Ziade: who?

Paul Ford: Very, very few people.

Rich Ziade: Boy.

Paul Ford: Very, very few people.

Rich Ziade: This is real.

Paul Ford: We’ll go into big meetings and no one will know, or care who we are.

Rich Ziade: And that’s okay. That’s okay.

Paul Ford: That’s, I mean, that’s, negotiating with that and accepting it is a huge part of the day to day.

Rich Ziade: It’s also, uh, frankly, a huge part of being relatively healthy, from a mental and psychological place with regards to work.

Paul Ford: Oh my God, yes.

Rich Ziade: It doesn’t, it’s just not, I, I’ve met the people where work is just this scab, they just can’t stop [00:19:00]itching and it’s bad, they’re just not happy, right? That’s real.

Paul Ford: Well, and I, I do think like the organizations like Google, Microsoft, Facebook, et cetera, they really do promise to be your whole life. That’s one of the things I, I really enjoy about when we ran an agency. It’s, it’s so transactional and mercenary.

Rich Ziade: Nobody stays, I mean, rarely do you stay at an agency for many years, right?

Paul Ford: Yeah, you’re there to up, up your skills and leave. 

Rich Ziade: Great experience, meet some people and move on.

Paul Ford: And tell everybody how they’re running it badly and you go get a job at a big company. It’s wonderful. I love it, no, no, I do. And I’ve been on both sides of that, uh, transaction and-

Rich Ziade: Do do you have advice, any other advice, Paul? Not just for people who have been affected by layoffs, but uh, those that maybe were left behind or in other places?

Paul Ford: Well, look, there’s something really important here, I learned this once from a boss and I watched him. Somebody lost their big executive position, they get when you get laid off, you, for a brief period of time, everybody starts to [00:20:00] swim away from you. You have the mark,

Rich Ziade: Mmm.

Paul Ford: Right? And they, and they, they don’t want it.

Rich Ziade: It sucks.

Paul Ford: They don’t want it to rub off on them. I’ve been laid off, it’s a bad feeling.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: And so, and you’re sitting there and you’re at home and you’re like, ah, “I just need some time to process”, like right? like you were going-

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: And so that is the right time to reach out. Reach out to the person who just got laid off, who you know, and say, “Hey, wow, that’s some news. We’d love to get coffee”.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: “Let’s talk about your next steps”.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: Right, because then you’re reminding them they’re viable, they’re smart, they did the job for a while. They can do other things cause it’s, they’re, they’re a little bit in shock and they will remember that from a self-interested point of view. They’ll remember that they will, they will go get another job. They will probably do better. Often they do because they’re ambitious to prove their former employer wrong.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: And then they’ll call you.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: And that’s how you build it, you take care of them a little bit.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: And I, I think this is, everybody’s looking at this and they’re freaking out and they’re going, “I wonder if I’m next?”, And then every, you know, some people are going: “This is it. This is the price we pay for [00:21:00]capitalism”. And some people are saying: “A perfect market just has to do this. You have no choice”. Put all that aside, because that’s above your pay grade, what is in your purview is to say, “do I know somebody who this happened to?”.

Rich Ziade: Right.

Paul Ford: Don’t just tweet that you’re, you know, try to get them a job, you won’t get them a job in the next week. It’s gonna take them months.

Rich Ziade: Yep, yep.

Paul Ford: Go get a drink and, and give ’em a sandwich and let them know that they-

Rich Ziade: Yeah, and also cheer them up a bit.

Paul Ford: Yeah, tell them, tell them that you’ll, you’ll keep your ears open and so on. You can’t promise a miracle.

Rich Ziade: No.

Paul Ford: But that’s, that is-

Rich Ziade: That’s good, good advice.

Paul Ford: If that’s what it all comes down to, because we, you and I get in this trap too, Richard, where we’re just, cause we’re trying to constantly negotiate the ethics of the larger system?

Rich Ziade: Mm-hm.

Paul Ford: And I think if you’re gonna just give a theme to the advice over and over again, it’s focus on the relationships that are nearby and care for the people who need care over and over capitalism or not.

Rich Ziade: Mm-hm, mm-hm. Yep. Common theme across the board as we close this podcast out, uh, relationships.

Paul Ford: That’s [00:22:00] it. 

Rich Ziade: It’s about relationships.

Paul Ford: It’s so simple, and this is like gonna become eventually, I think like an ASMR podcast where we’re just like, focus on the relationships that are close to you. Care for the people who you work with.

Rich Ziade: [laughter] Uh, if you’re out there and you got affected, uh, hang in there. Uh, connect with friends and colleagues, you’ll land on your feet. No doubt. Uh, we’ve seen this. We’re old enough, Paul, to have seen a few of these.

Paul Ford: Oh, the good news on this one is there actually is a tremendous need for all the skills and talents. There may not be, um, you know, they’ll come by and do your laundry and give you a back rub while you program JavaScript.

Rich Ziade: Right.

Paul Ford: But, uh, that might be good too. I don’t, I, I see that Google employees and Microsoft, they, they go in and they never come out.

Rich Ziade: [laughter] It’s like, a commune.

Paul Ford: Yeah, you’re, you’re just, you’re too taken care of.

Rich Ziade: Yeah, yeah.

Paul Ford: Come, come live with us, Rich and I make coffee in a Keurig-

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: And, you know, I, I do the dishes before I leave this office every night.

Rich Ziade: It’s true. [00:23:00] Um, check us out @Ziadeford.com, we’ve got a new look and feel coming very soon. Paul and I are excited.

Paul Ford: Coming soon, hello@ziadeford.com is the email to reach out to. We’re on Twitter @Ziadeford and…

Rich Ziade: Give us five stars.

Paul Ford: That’s all, just five stars anywhere [chuckles]. Just go out and point at five stars in the sky tonight and say those are for you, Rich and Paul.

Rich Ziade: Aw, shucks.

Paul Ford: Alright, well, that’s our advice for today. Let’s, uh, let’s get back to work.

Rich Ziade: Have a good day.

Paul Ford: Bye 

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