Episode · September 21, 2023

The podcast about what to do next.


[Unedited Transcript]

Paul Ford: [00:00:00] Rich, why, can you get off your phone for one minute and so we can run the business? My God, what is it? Is somebody, is there an emergency? Is someone calling you? are you doing? Huh?

Rich Ziade: Just playing a game.

Paul Ford: Oh boy. Well, I mean, I got to admit, games are amazing.

Rich Ziade: Yeah, they are for a lot of reasons.

Paul Ford: All right. So Rich, why are you, you’re, you’re like, let’s talk about mobile games. And I’m like, Oh really? Candy currently, what the hell is there to say?

Rich Ziade: let me, let me, let me set it up a bit. We, we have a product called Aboard, wah, wah, like

Paul Ford: It’s the sponsor

Rich Ziade: com and we’re about to launch. This is like go back a few weeks and they’re like, what about onboarding?[00:01:00]

Paul Ford: Let me let me I want to make an important point Which is and I keep making this point because I I just don’t feel that the world is hearing me When people think about startups, they think about code.

Rich Ziade: Yeah.

Paul Ford: they think about design, but you know what they don’t talk about Onboarding and marketing.

Rich Ziade: Onboarding is… Let’s define it for everyone. Onboarding is…

Paul Ford: don’t even define it. Let me describe it to you.

Rich Ziade: Yeah, describe it.

Paul Ford: Hi. Welcome to scurly girl We’re going to tell you exactly how to play a scurly girl. We’re going to set up your scurly girl avatar right now.

Rich Ziade: Hit

Paul Ford: Hit next. Oh, look it. And then it’s like a little, a little person dancing in a dress. I’m moving my arms around as I’m talking to you.

People can’t see that. And you get to choose the colors. You can pick any color you want with the scurly girl dress. And, and what they’re actually doing, they’re showing you the tool, so that’s nice, you’re figuring out the new skills, they’re trying to make it fun. And then, typically also the onboarding [00:02:00] tends to point towards like, and if you want more colors for the dress, you can go to the Scurly Girl store.

Rich Ziade: I don’t know why you’re on these apps, but okay, keep going with this example.

Paul Ford: mean, so onboarding is about getting someone from a downloader to a regular user, as much as you can do to make that happen, but you get about 10 seconds.

Rich Ziade: You don’t have, I mean, so let’s set, I mean, yes, that’s the hard part, right? Like, games are free.

Paul Ford: For the most part, yeah,

Rich Ziade: you can, there’s a few you can buy, but 99

Paul Ford: actually, there’s actually lists of games you can buy because they’re so much less toxic than the free ones.

Rich Ziade: They are much less toxic, but most are free. And there is a,

Paul Ford: humans are broken,

Rich Ziade: correlation.

Paul Ford: Humans will spend their time like it is garbage.

Rich Ziade: That’s not judge

Paul Ford: No, no, I’m just saying like, you know what, pony up two bucks for something that it isn’t just a hot poker in your eyeball every five seconds, or spend zero but eventually give [00:03:00] up your children’s college money in order to get more golden coins, we’ll choose number two.

Rich Ziade: Uh, and when you choose number two, when something’s free, there’s literally, I mean, zero cost for trying it. And if you’re trying something for free, there’s an inverse correlation between How much money you put into it,

Paul Ford: Mm hmm.

Rich Ziade: how much time you’re willing to commit to give it a

Paul Ford: Mm hmm.

Rich Ziade: you don’t have to put any money into it, you’ll casually give something a whirl for a very, very short amount of time.

So, mobile game designers were left with this incredible challenge. They can grab anything off the shelf. They can taste anything they

Paul Ford: Mm

Rich Ziade: How do I make sure, like, salt, fat, and sugar hit their brains within probably 20 seconds? We said 10, it’s probably like 20, 20 to 30 seconds. Because they will uninstall the game.

They won’t just never go back in. They’ll just get rid of it off their

Paul Ford: I always think about this when people are like, what is enterprise [00:04:00] software? Enterprise software is software that Uh, you can spend two weeks training someone how to use it because it’s so critical to their job.

Rich Ziade: You’ve essentially been told you have to play

Paul Ford: and so it, it may actually be very good software if, once you learn to use it, or it may be terrible.

It doesn’t really matter, but that time will be spent and people will pay you to learn it.

Rich Ziade: And then pay you to use it.

Paul Ford: This is the absolute opposite. This is you got it for free. They are waiting to get you in there so they can squeeze you and they need to keep you in the room.

Rich Ziade: That’s right. And so what you have is this very high stakes game and the fall off for them is Incredibly high so like how am I gonna capture you and get you a to not get frustrated to not get annoyed Not wonder why you grabbed it in the first place More importantly, how do I get you to feel? Like you’ve achieved something in a [00:05:00] very short amount of time right and I’ll use a game for an example It’s a really fun game.

It’s in it’s part of the Apple Arcade collection of games Which is you pay once and you get it’s like Netflix for

Paul Ford: Intercept

Rich Ziade: games called Agent Intercept Okay, Agent Intercept is essentially you’re driving a car that can shoot missiles It’s silly like very like low stress

Paul Ford: Move one

Rich Ziade: move one finger kind of thing and the car can become a Plane sometimes or it can become a boat.

It’s like it’s it’s a silly

Paul Ford: Are you kind of running? Is it just sort of going forward the whole

Rich Ziade: It’s going forward the whole time. There’s no gas

Paul Ford: it’s, you know, in another example, I guess it’s temple

Rich Ziade: Temple run same

Paul Ford: just, you just, you’re already running and you just jump.

Rich Ziade: Yeah, this is a little more There’s like an extra button but very basic

Paul Ford: here we go.

Rich Ziade: and so the game kicks in and the way I like to look at really good Onboarding is it’s imagine you’re watching a TV commercial and then two thirds into the commercial person in the commercial [00:06:00] reaches through your screen And gives you a Dorito.

Paul Ford: Yeah, that’s, that’s the dream.

Rich Ziade: It’s the dream, right?

Paul Ford: Advertising has been trying to figure that out for a hundred years now.

Rich Ziade: I mean, it’s essentially, okay, I’ve been passive. I saw it in the app store, passive consumer. I installed it, and now it’s like, it gave me the greeting screen. Still a passive consumer. And then, Agent Intercept took my hand and said, You’re Agent Intercept. Come with me. The game starts, and then overlaid over the video game, My car’s racing.

I’m like, okay, that’s a cool looking car. It’s going pretty fast. It paused. The game paused and a big goofy arrow pointed to a button and said hit this and you will shoot out Shoot that helicopter in the sky.

Paul Ford: My car is going I don’t want to do that. I want to shoot that helicopter. I was going fast and now I’m not going. I got to hit the button.

Rich Ziade: the way, zero skill. All they wanted me to do is hit the button It was like a heat seeking missile. It curved up and blew up the helicopter and I have to tell you I felt I felt like it was [00:07:00] like a little mini religious

Paul Ford: Oh, your brain goes, yeah.

Rich Ziade: Yeah Kept driving a bit more, and now they wanted me to understand that if I go over certain pods on the road, I get nitro boost.

Paul Ford: Mm hmm.

Rich Ziade: So it paused again, pointed to a little thing on the road, and it’s like, if you run over this, you’ll go twice as fast,

Paul Ford: Mm hmm.

Rich Ziade: language was. And then, it unpaused, and I didn’t do anything. It just ran over

Paul Ford: Of

Rich Ziade: I was like, okay, I get that, right? And then, at the end of this, a couple more little, little, mini, tiny lessons, the UI kind of lifted out, and it said something like, off you go, save the world.

And the game kept going.

Paul Ford: completed your mission and you, you learned the basic skills and now you’re in it.

Rich Ziade: You’re actually in it. So the modality was eliminated. There’s no setting screen. There’s no start button. There was no nothing as soon as I went

Paul Ford: didn’t go back to beginning and now you have to choose your character.

Rich Ziade: No, no, no, no. This, it put me in the experience immediately, [00:08:00] taught me through some nice reinforcement and then let me go. And that is to me, I don’t know why am I talking about this game and mobile games in general?

This to me is essentially. The gold standard of onboarding a user onto anything, anything, anything. Imagine if you opened a box that had a vacuum cleaner in it and it somehow taught you instead of rummaging through the, the, the, the owner’s manual, that’s in seven languages. And for some reason, like the other languages, if you flip it backwards, I guess maybe because it goes backwards or something, I don’t know, but again.

Paul Ford: backwards. But, again.

Rich Ziade: What you wanna do with software, all software, and we’re learning this with a board, is you want to eliminate work as soon as people feel like they have to do work to learn. Right. Um, it creates friction. And friction is your enemy in terms of adoption.

Paul Ford: want to like they have to throw a curveball at you. [00:09:00] Because, so, I get it. I agree with you. I like what you’re saying. But it’s two buttons. Yes.

Rich Ziade: Yes.

Paul Ford: Okay. I’m going to give you a counterexample. Which is… I’m into music and synthesizers and no, no, hold on. So you can go online and you can buy all kinds of synthesizers.

Some of them are desktop modules. You plug stuff into and so forth, but the ultimate interface, and there are many attempts to get around this interface is 12 keys and five are black and seven are white.

Rich Ziade: Okay.

Paul Ford: octave on a piano and there’s 88 keys on the full size thing. Okay. And it is like, you’re going back to.

to Western music theory and all kinds of stuff, but the reality is you have all these complicated electronics. You have additive synthesis or subtractive synthesis or FM synthesis. There’s all these different manufacturers, so on and so forth. But there is one skill set that if you learn that basic skill set And it, it will, it is the interface, it is the defined [00:10:00] interface to all of that world of sound shaping, all those different methods, all that stuff.

And I feel the same way about the computer keyboard and windowing toolkits and so on. You have to, so, I get what you’re saying and I think that like, there is the like, I’m going to give you the equivalent of a five course meal in, in tiny appetizers jammed in your throat so that, and then now we’re playing the game.

And I think that that, that vibe and aiming for that is right, but there’s a complicated thing going on where like, like a board is a good example. We’re trying to get people to do roughly complicated stuff. We want them to save data into a space that’s well organized. Okay. That’s a very abstract thing. And so, and we need them to install a bookmark, uh, or a plugin. So there, so they can do an extension on their, in their web browser and so on. And so what we end up doing, and I’m curious, like. How do you, because we’re thinking this through, where’s your head at? Because we, we can’t do the game. We can do one or two things, but we can’t show them the whole app.

[00:11:00] You learn most of the game in those two button presses.

Rich Ziade: Yeah. And it’s, it’s shallower. The skill set is much, much shallower than, than learning to play a

Paul Ford: It will still have about a hundred times the engagement of anything we ever built in their lives. But yeah, yeah,

Rich Ziade: right. Um, here’s, here’s, well, I, uh, I have…

Paul Ford: guess what I’m saying is like, defend your metaphor because what we’re trying to do is much harder.

Rich Ziade: have a two part answer, okay? Um, and, and, and I’ve seen this sometimes. People have tried to gamify actual productivity software to get you to go through a process. Like, if you do these five things, you get the blue ribbon, right? Like… And it’s like you’re, and sometimes they meter it, it looks like a meter, and it’s like you, you’re, you’re three out of five there.

You got three steps in, but you’ve only got two to go.

Paul Ford: head, I think of this as wizard culture. This is a big part of, this is a big part of software for a long time, which is like, a good enough wizard will solve every problem and it’ll take you through each

Rich Ziade: That’s right, that’s right. I, I think I have two answers. First off, I think you can do it. [00:12:00] Why do I think you can do it? Because if I talk, took someone through a board and said, Hey!

Let’s walk you through a board and we’re gonna do this together. Mm-hmm. , right? And we’re gonna install the add-on. Once you install the add-on, I redirect your browser to a cool product, uh, somewhere like in aboard hat. And it’s like, now it shows an add-on. It says, click this button and you’ll be able to add this hat to the board we created a little while ago.

So you could do it, you could actually make a much more interactive experience. There are apps that do that. The problem with that is, It’s not the problem, the challenge is, it’s a lot of more, a lot more software. It costs money to produce all this other stuff to teach people

Paul Ford: is real. Onboarding is a product unto itself.

Rich Ziade: Onboarding is a product unto itself.

Paul Ford: So now you’re building, yeah, you build your code, and then you gotta design it, and then you gotta do it on mobile as well as web, and now you gotta do onboarding on mobile as well as web, and have a marketing site, and create the analytics and the funnel.

[00:13:00] So, when people are building a product, they’re actually building like seven or eight separate products.

Rich Ziade: a, there’s a, a… pretty powerful productivity workflow tool called Asana that’s out in the world. They put a lot of energy into this. They actually have this very wizard y step by step. Let’s not overwhelm you with buttons and

Paul Ford: I mean, that’s

Rich Ziade: you the baseline.

Paul Ford: the archetypal consumer productivity tool. Like, Hey, it wasn’t necessarily for businesses first. It was for you to pick up so you could organize your stuff.

Rich Ziade: And they put, you could see there’s probably a team of designers that just were focused on that onboarding. So it’s doable, but it’s like, it feels counterintuitive. It’s like, wait a minute. The real meat’s over here. We built all this great software, now I gotta build more software to explain the software?

That seems crazy to me, right?

Paul Ford: The the software? That seems crazy. Which is a minute. Five minutes. Ours is a lot longer, right? And so, I think, I think this relates to your

Rich Ziade: It would be a lot. That’s my second point. Which is, the learning curve for that game is about a [00:14:00] minute. Two minutes. Ours is a lot longer, right? And so… I think, I think this relates to your synth point, which is, I could explain to you conceptually the, you know, the 12 keys that make up all of music, but that doesn’t mean you’re going to be really good at

Paul Ford: you’re going

Rich Ziade: it.

It doesn’t mean anything at all, actually. It just means I just educated you on some piece of information. The rest is kind of on

Paul Ford: It just means I just educated you on some piece of information. The rest is kind of… Except for very

Rich Ziade: That’s right. Um,

Paul Ford: software

Rich Ziade: here’s the most bitter pill to swallow for anybody that makes software. Nobody, except for very few people, sees software as an end in itself. They see it as good enough to export the PDF. Once that PDF has been exported, you could die. I don’t care if you die. Like, I’m done with

Paul Ford: you know how you can tell the difference. I, I realized there is a very clear filter. [00:15:00] Do they go into settings just to look around?

Rich Ziade: Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Ford: 99 percent of people are never going into settings just to look around.

Rich Ziade: I’ve explained how to do a certain thing on like… On a PDF, like how to sign a PDF for someone. And it was like an extra three steps, because it was annoying. They weren’t using like the right tool or whatever. And they just yell, they’re like, that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever

Paul Ford: I do love,

Rich Ziade: up getting insulted.

Paul Ford: love being,

Rich Ziade: you signed your document. That’s the stupidest

Paul Ford: No, you get, you get blamed for all

Rich Ziade: You get blamed for it. Most people don’t care and don’t have the patience. And so, how do you get around

Paul Ford: do the big games do it? All right, so let’s take like a Call of Duty or, uh, you know, one of the, the Sid Meier like simulation type, like a Civ, a Civilization. There’s a million things you can do in Civilization. Okay. How do they get people excited and motivated to learn all that stuff?

Rich Ziade: You know, I think games have an advantage. Over, like, apps. [00:16:00] And the advantage they have is, um, it, it, good game designers, um, are flipping the right switches in your brain. Like, role playing games are a great example of that.

Paul Ford: Well, it’s literally Julius Caesar will pop up and say, like, looks like I need some more money, you know, just, you

Rich Ziade: they’re hitting, they’re hitting, like… They’re hitting the collecting and hoarding and creating wealth nerve.

Paul Ford: territorial expansion.

Rich Ziade: hitting the if I shoot this missile it will blow everything up nerve. Like these are, these are things that… My son wants a crossbow.

Paul Ford: Of course, I mean, every son does. You know, in my neighborhood, when I first moved in on the mailing list, I didn’t know where, like, someone was just shooting crossbows in general, and they were going into people’s houses. Yeah.

Rich Ziade: Jesus, like a sharp arrow

Paul Ford: Yeah. No, like it was somebody who was going out in their backyard who might have had a little some stuff going on in their brain.

They weren’t aiming for people. It’s just like people would wake up and be like, what did, did you hear that? And it’d be a crossbow just like in their foyer.

Rich Ziade: [00:17:00] Oh Jesus, that’s terrifying.

Paul Ford: visited and you know, he was in, maybe it was somebody older who lived with their parents. It was that kind of,

Rich Ziade: Got it. That, but, reinforces my point. Games are able to… First off, games are social. A lot of games are online. And so, that, there’s the competitive aspect there. But also, it just, there’s all sorts of ways to hit the dopamine. Like, release that dopamine through

Paul Ford: They also are narratives, and so they get to work training you into the narrative. It’ll be

Rich Ziade: they all train, by the way. Even Civilization. What they often

Paul Ford: no, or like a, you know, a game like Last of Us where it’d be like, Hey, I found this gun, but I’m sad. You know, just

Rich Ziade: But, back to my earlier point. If I paid 60 bucks for that game… I’m more inclined to commit my time to see it through. Like the idea, there’s no refund, right? Whereas a mobile game, like that’s why I think it is the gold standard because they’re like, they paid nothing, they, we have a sliver of their attention because they’re probably thinking about something else, [00:18:00] and we have to somehow win them over.

That is in a very extreme, extreme,

Paul Ford: in the way. This is though? That is

Rich Ziade: pressure cooker moment. Yeah.

Paul Ford: sales.

Rich Ziade: It’s sales. 100%.

Paul Ford: is the absolute epitome of sales. It’s just like, they are about to get distracted, and you have to tell them why this is in their best

Rich Ziade: I want to end it on this thought. Which is, I view onboarding as a continuum of marketing. You just happen to have like, gone through this like, very simple picket fence. But you’re still marketing.

Paul Ford: me ask you, let me ask you a generally hard question. I know we’re trying to end this, but this, this fascinates me, right? Cause there is onboarding and marketing. Okay. Continuum. What about where’s product lift relative to this? Is it separate?

Rich Ziade: That’s a great question. Um,

Paul Ford: Very like, like, like a lot of the things that get advertised on YouTube. It’s not right. Like you’re in there and I’ll give you an example. When you use air [00:19:00] table. Not necessarily a big YouTube advertiser, but when you use Airtel, it is upselling you a lot on various features and various functions, right?

So, so the actually to gain access to the software and to use the tool You are part of the onboarding and marketing campaign like they are they’re completely connected

Rich Ziade: Yes, they are they are um, I think one of the mistakes product thinkers do myself included is that we believe we are Marching towards some nirvana state of product that has nothing to do with

Paul Ford: We’re gonna solve it

Rich Ziade: We’re going to solve it, right? And what we do is we show people the door. We actually, it’s actually very, a good product manager is actually quite dismissive and condescending towards humans because they have this principled belief that the thing is stands on its own and you must all come to the tower and pray to the tower.

They all believe [00:20:00] that and it’s actually not a bad belief to a certain point, but man, humans are gonna humble you so frickin fast you, and so the best product thinkers synthesize human need With that sort of stubborn idealism around what a great product should be, because I am a believer in like, let’s learn from a small cohort of users and really refine and tweak.

I do believe that. But I don’t believe that’s all there is because I’m going to tell you something. Pull to refresh did not come out of research. It went, it came out of someone who was crazy enough to say, if this feels rubbery when I pull on it, why don’t we do that to refresh data instead of

Paul Ford: Well, no one, no one asked for that.

Rich Ziade: No one asked for that.

Paul Ford: like, could it feel like I’m pulling a rubber band?

Rich Ziade: Some of the most interesting innovations come from outer space,

Paul Ford: you know, you know where they do actually focus on creating experiences like that is games.

Rich Ziade: Yes, that’s right. Games

Paul Ford: The more [00:21:00] tactile, the more responsive, and it doesn’t feel, it feels weird and interesting. It doesn’t feel alien. The problem with, with apps is that if you go. Anywhere far afield. I remember once I tilted a close button like 30 degrees just to be a pain in the ass, and everybody got angry.

Like, you can’t change anything.

Rich Ziade: change anything. And so I think, I think to me product is you Um, I have an analogy. This, this podcast is dragging, but this is a good topic. I have an analogy. Um, The director’s cut. I just found out by the way, Ridley Scott’s like Napoleon, which is coming out is like, it went north of four hours.

And he was like fully convinced that Catherine, Caroline or Catherine, whoever his wife was, I don’t know, Josephine. Okay. Thank you, Paul. Uh, Josephine’s story, the plot line was necessary for the whole thing. So it gets to the studio and that is the, that’s the product manager. That’s the product thinker and thinking I have unlocked [00:22:00] Napoleon and Josephine.

So here we are four hours, gets to the studio. As soon as like. What the hell is this? You gotta lop off an

Paul Ford: No. No. They shouldn’t have. They should have done an intermission.

Rich Ziade: Or,

Paul Ford: I want, I want, man, who wants that?

Rich Ziade: is the studio doing that?

Paul Ford: Because they need people to see the movie.

Rich Ziade: They, not only that, they want people to see the movie, but they, they are like, you are a genius, your vision unrivaled, but people are gonna buy Mike and Ike’s, and we need them to like it, and we need them to tell

Paul Ford: I think what’s wild is in 2023, you might have better luck with the four hour disaster than with the two hour, nice, trim, tight Napoleon movie. I think people, it’s like Oppenheimer and Barbie together, like, people are looking for spectacle and a little bit of an endurance test more than they’re looking for like a tight narrative that fits.

They have, they’re oversupplied with that.

Rich Ziade: yeah,

Paul Ford: So like, the fellas will go out and go see the four hour Napoleon.

Rich Ziade: I was also [00:23:00] reading yesterday that, um, you know, um, Dave Gilmore, the guitarist for Pink Floyd, never played a solo through when he recorded it for the albums. He would play the same solo many times, and they would stitch together the best

Paul Ford: I mean, that’s how you should do it. You’re, you’re using recording technology.

Rich Ziade: and, and, but, but you could, you know, I, you know, a certain, certain Gilmore would might say that’s utterly insulting the way you’re chopping up my music, my creation into little pieces.

Paul Ford: No,

Rich Ziade: are going to have their say. So product is like, okay, I believe in a thesis. I’m going to pursue it. And then it gets put in front of humans.

And then frankly, onboarding is just fully understanding that humans are going to touch your thing.

Paul Ford: I’m going to, I’m going to come at this and then let’s close this out. I’m going to come at this from

Rich Ziade: We’ve been threatening to end this podcast

Paul Ford: We’re going to end it now. So I think what, when I’m asking that question, it almost feels like, Oh, here we go. Like we’re going to make marketing and product one in the same and blah, blah, blah.

Is that what I would actually argue from a different point of view, which is they are one in the [00:24:00] same everywhere, okay? The funnel that gets people into the product and gets them to sign up to go to the onboarding, and then they start using it, and you want to tell them about new tools, and now there’s the pro version, and now there’s…

That is how software works today. You don’t, you don’t get a CD and install it. It is this continuous long term relationship with newsletters and media and info and so on.

Rich Ziade: It’s a relationship.

Paul Ford: is a relationship. What you should be doing is figuring out how your product quality, what is, what are your goals? What are, what is your quality?

How are you going to build that relationship? And I mean, look, this is what we’re trying to do, but more than trying to keep those worlds separate and being like, well, this is the pure product space over here and this is onboarding and like, let’s not get those all mixed up now. Accept that they’re all of a piece and then figure out, like, what are the ethical boundaries here?

What do people expect? How do we keep their trust? Because what happens, I actually would argue that because they’re separate worlds, marketing and so on, trust gets violated more often because the marketers go off and are like, all right, take the data, sell more copies. Here we

Rich Ziade: promising, you [00:25:00] know, you’ll lose 10 pounds in three

Paul Ford: And then the product,

Rich Ziade: and the product, people always flip out like, what are you doing?

Paul Ford: Everybody’s,

Rich Ziade: think

Paul Ford: if we’re building an org that is really trying to get software across in this day and age, like I think you gotta actually see them all as one piece in order to preserve the value.

Rich Ziade: Yeah. Product marketing is a. Bonafide title

Paul Ford: Yes, that’s right.

Rich Ziade: Product marketing is that, to some extent. You see it in consumer goods, much, much more so. Like, what colors, like they test out the colors of Pop Tarts packages and see

Paul Ford: but the CMO can make just as much as the Chief Product Officer because they’re close to revenue.

Rich Ziade: They’re closer,

Paul Ford: Yeah, arguably, yeah.

Rich Ziade: Yes, that’s right. This was an excellent podcast.

Paul Ford: just the best. We’re just, oh my God.

Rich Ziade: check out a board at a board. com. It’s a great tool. It’s free. We’re in beta mobile app is coming very soon. I’m not going to bore you with what it does. You could just go to a board.

com and [00:26:00] find out

Paul Ford: a pretty good marketing website.

Rich Ziade: very good marketing website.

Paul Ford: there at the top of the funnel. All right, everybody, add Ziade Ford on Twitter. Hello at ZiadeFord. com if you need us via email and we love you. We’ll talk to you soon.

Rich Ziade: Thank you. Bye bye.

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